A Pocket Full Of Hope and I talked briefly about the saying of: love the sinner, hate the sin
My first question is where in the bible does it say that? If someone out there knows please tell me so I can look it up and read it.
What does that mean? Love the sinner, hate the sin?
What about the words of encouragement when you don’t get what you want? How many times have Christians said: that’s Gods will? How can people who have not gotten something, or lost something find solace in a statement like that?
Or how about: Christianity isn’t a religion it’s a relationship. A relationship with God I know. But that relationship seems to translate so often into you can’t have a relationship with God because of the sin in your life.
This one often about pushes me over the edge: God won’t give you more than you can handle. Does that mean all the people in the world who have committed suicide didn’t have enough faith in God?
I know the people who say these things mean well, but they sound so glib. When I’m at the end of my rope I don’t want to hear these things. Maybe that’s because I don’t believe in God. But I’m not sure if I did believe in God I would want to hear these things.
Filed under: Christianity | Tagged: bisexual, Christian, Christian sayings, christian signs, Christianity, church sayings, gay, jesus, Lesbian, queer
Love the sinner, hate the sin isn’t a Biblical saying. It more or less means, “love who someone is, not what they do”, but when it comes to homosexuality where what someone does is a PART of who they do, that saying becomes self-defeating and unfair.
Which is why you’ll never catch me saying it.
I also don’t believe that everything that happens is God’s will. Human beings have free enterprise, and that means they can do things that go directly contrary to God’s will. I was sexually abused as a child. That WASN’T God’s will! God could never WILL something like that to happen! I also take issue with people saying “God has a plan”- certainly God has a plan, but that doesn’t mean that humans have to obey. Jonah went directly against God’s plan, and Jonah SPOKE with God! Moses disobeyed God, and Moses SAW God! Yes, God has a plan, but that doesn’t mean that when things go Wrong that’s what God wants.
And if sinners can’t have a relationship with God, NO ONE can. Everyone sins. You, Ceara, could have a relationship with God and die a lesbian. It’s not about eradicating sin, but seeking out God’s heart for you. If God does command you to surrender something, that’s one thing- but I know plenty of Gay people who God hasn’t ordered to stop being Gay.
Don’t give up hope.
And as for “God won’t give you more than you can handle”- I don’t think that’s honest, either. I think that with God’s love and the love of others people can bear all things, but I think that there are a lot of times when people cause each other to fall in ways that breaks God’s heart. Like a girl I knew who was raped by a relative at the age of five and later became suicidal- saying “God won’t give you more than you can handle” to that girl would have been a lie. It wasn’t God giving her anything. Now, God’s love and the love of others did draw her through it, she’s a happily married mom now. She’s okay.
But it wasn’t God who had her raped, that was the evilness of humanity.
God isn’t in “control”, Ceara. This is earth, this is the domain of the humans. We’re the ones responsible for how f-ed up things are. God does love us, he loves you, he wants to be with you.
But not to torment you. Just to love you, to hold you, like a mommy cat loving on her babies. Just to share in the moments with you.
But it’s your choice, and God isn’t going to smite you for not being sure.
Heck, I can’t find my way around a Bible with a GPS.
And Christian…that’s what the people who judge
others call themselves
Don’t fret these things. Nobody really knows the
answers to it all.
HUGS!!!!!!!!!
Ceara,
To back up what The Sentinel said these are saying meant for Christians. Not for those who are non-believers. You as a someone who is lost in their sin and think with an unholy mind and a lost soul can’t understand some of these things.
I think The Sentinel did well in answering your question about love the sinner and hate the sin. All that I may add is that you as an unsaved sinner cannot understand God’s love. You can only understand love as you think it should be. Divine love is a lost concept to you.
The saying of That’s God’s Will is biblical. God’s will isn’t always for people to understand. God will allow things to happen in someones life to give them strength, break them down, or give them insight. His list goes on and on as to the reasons why He allows things to happen. But it is His will that these things happen, he created every thing, therefore he controls everything.
Christianity isn’t a religion it’s a relationship. That is true. It’s a relationship with a Holy God who saved us from our sin. He is a God who we can come to as people free from sin by his grace. The bible says if we confess our sin He is holy and just and will forgive us of our sin. Sin is what separates us from God. We must be willing to give up that sin and confess it. You Ceara are not willing to do that. You embrace your sin and call it love to justify it not being a sin. The bible clearly states that your love isn’t love at all.
God won’t give you more than you can handle. If you are a true believer in God that is true. If you have faith in God, and believe with all your heart then you will be able to hand your burdens over to him. You won’t have to handle them alone, because God is there lifting them from you. Also God will place people in your life who will encourage you and support you.
Ceara, you are too blinded by your sin to see this. I think you are blinded by your stubborn arrogance that says you know more about love than God does.
Sane
C, As for the Christian sayings, yes sometimes they bring great comfort, and other times they irritate the hell out of me. If I am in conversation with a friend that I know truly loves me and cares for me, then I get comfort.
If I am in a conversation with someone who is just trying to give lip service, it really irritates me.
It reminds me of when my grandfather died, people would walk past and say that he looked at peace. But no he looked dead. But then his cousin walked by, he was there for pap and held him when he was getting sick, and even helped to clean him up. When he said that pap looked at peace now. I got comfort from that. Because he meant it. He was there before and knew that pap was peacful now.
So I think it is the intent behind the sayings.
As for the love you share, it is Love. Love is love, don’t buy into anyone else’s deffinition especially when there is an agenda behind it. Take care.
@ Sane ” I think you are blinded by your stubborn arrogance that says you know more about love than God does.”
Some would say the say applies to you.
Ceara-
I completely understand. I believe there are different reasons why people use these little sayings, some mean well, others don’t.
“When I’m at the end of my rope I don’t want to hear these things.”
You’re not alone, many folks feel that way. I think they are harder to swallow when you are at the end of your rope.
You know C, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that you are where you are right now with all this, I’m sorry that you have recevied such a strong, harsh image of God, I’m so sorry you feel the way you do. It’s understandable though.
Sane- Are you so blinded by your arrogance that you can ‘t see that Ceara is tired. Fed up. At the end of her rope. Sane, we aren’t talking about someone being at the end of their rope and ready to accept Jesus, we are talking about someone who is at the end of her rope and now doesn’t believe in God at all.
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps this is not what God wants to talk to Ceara about?
Don’t you think it’s bit arrogant of you to think that you know the EXACT REASON why she has felt distant from God?
Perhaps God just wants to love on her, tell her how beautiful she is and how precious she is to him. Perhaps he wants her to sit in his prescence so he can tell her how much he loves her and all the wonderful qualities she has. Perhaps he just wants her to continue searching for him.
But she can’t. Because apparently you think she has to turn from this one so called sin.
When do we allow God to be God and trust that he has HIS own plan, with his own DETAILS and TIMING?
Wvhillcountry,
I think I do know more about God’s love than someone who claims a deviant love is love. I use the Word of God to back up my claim. I don’t expect everyone to understand when I call someone on their sin. The Bible states that too.
I’m certain to you and others I seem arrogant. That is probably because I’m standing up for what I know is truth.
I didn’t say God doesn’t love gays and lesbians. He does. He just can’t look on the filth of what they call ‘love’.
Wvhillcountry, don’t be ridiculous. Of course I don’t know more than God.
Stephanie,
If I come across a blog where someone is bragging and flaunting their sin as if it is acceptable then I’m going to address that.
This blogs brags about how being a lesbian should be accepted. If this blog was talking about how murder, or adultery should be acceptable we would be in agreement with what I have said.
Stephanie, because you and others want to defend your sin and the same sin in others doesn’t make it an acceptable sin.
Common spiritual sense would tell you the reason someone would be distant from God is because of a sin they don’t want to give up. They may hide that sin, or flaunt it for every one to see. At least those who hide their sin know that it’s unacceptable.
So, yes I do believe I know the exact sin. I also know that sin disgusts God. One must be covered with the blood of Christ in order to commune with God.
Sane
Ceara,
I suggest you do some research on if God is in control or not. What kind of God would not be in control?
Sane
No Sane, you don’t know the exact sin.
Ceara could have 50 other sins in her life and you won’t charge after her on those, you pick this one so called sin because YOU think it’s what God wants her to deal with.
What I am saying to you has very little to do with you Sane, this isn’t a contest. Ceara is not your little project. Please hear me when I say I’m not here to argue with you for the fun of it.
But can’t you see? I know you have a heart, feelings and emotions, so I know if you listen closely, you can hear her say she is at the end of her rope. Is it your desire to push her over the edge? She’s tired. Can you offer some mercy? Extend some grace? Back off?
You said….”If I come across a blog where someone is bragging and flaunting their sin as if it is acceptable then I’m going to address that.”
Sane, you have done that over and over and over again. You have addressed it, we all know you think our “deviant love” is not acceptable. We know you think we are all hard hearted. No one has to guess how you feel about Ceara, me, Kelli or anyone else here. We have read your comments and we hear you loud and clear.
I hope that you can stop looking upon her as a sinner who needs to walk away from a particular sin. I hope you can look at her as a human being who is searching (well, was) and nothing is wrong with that.
Do you realize that you could be causing her more damage, grief and heartache, than doing her good? Have you thought of that? Imean really thought of that? Does it matter? Or is it just all about the converting someone and YOU are going to be the one to do it?
I hope not.
I suppose someone needs to tell all of us deviants just how deviant we all are, and Sane’s just the one to do it. Proclaiming the truth when the hundreds of Christian sects can’t even agree upon the truth. Or what constitutes “truth.” Or basic tenets of the faith. Or how to read their holy book. Or what books make up their holy book. Or what constitutes being “saved.” Or whether being saved is even a term to be concerned about.
People have used your same holy book, Sane, to say that being gay is just fine. People have used your holy book to say that black people were born to be slaves. People have used your holy book to do great mission work overseas and at home. People have used your holy book to justify war and famine and murder and oppression and love and beauty and art.
Common spiritual sense. I love it. Because what Christians believe — and what they believe is sinful — is so clear. Out of the millions of people on the planet who honestly, devoutly, believe they are trying to follow God’s will, and of the millions of different ways they all show their faith and devotion, God decided he was going to share all the goodies, the secret with you. And everyone who walks in lockstep with you.
Not a piece of the goodies. Not a glimpse at the truth. The entire truth, in all its complicated (or is it simple?) glory.
I guess that’s good for you. I also guess that means the rest of us can just stop thinking and searching and questioning. We’ll just ask you. I don’t know why, then, he wasted the time giving us all brains. He doesn’t make mistakes, or does he? Dunno. He did, after all, make me.
Common spiritual sense. Clear as mud. Sign me up.
But for the time being, I think I’ve decided God’s a jerk. But I will steal his term — so given by you — deviant love. It would make a great band name. A grrrl band.
Sane: You’re language is eerily similar to what I’ve seen from a lot of people who have gone through ex-gay rehabilitation.
Calling it “filth”, “abhorrent”, etc.
Remember as you write that Ceara is very deeply in love with and devoted to a woman- and if you are calling that relationship “filth” you are very deeply offending her, and casting away any potential you might have to actually winning Ceara over.
Ceara’s heart isn’t hardened because of her sin. It’s hardened because of people who treat her, her love, and her life with such casualness.
You may believe that God has called you to minister to homosexuals- but has God really called you to minister in this way, anonymously, in blog comments? In the kind of language that makes even me (a heterosexual) wince?
And before you say “I don’t comment for you, I comment for Ceara”- I’d just like to say that this response isn’t only for you. It’s for her, as well, to know that my heart breaks for her when people say these things.
Normally I would not post these thoughts, but since you feel the right to come onto a lesbian’s blog and belittle her and her readership, I am setting aside my better judgement.
Have you ever heard the saying, “I think you protest too much?” You do seem very fixated on this one “sin”. Do you troll around the internet looking for other sins in blogs and speak as passionately? Or do you type in the search tag of gay and homosexuals so you can troll just those blogs? You seem so very passionate about convincing gay people of their sin, but my biggest question is this, Are you trying to convince C or yourself?
It would seem to me that you are trying to remove what you view as a demon. But I think you are trying to take the GAY out of you, not C. Just because you hate being gay doesn’t mean the rest of us do. Maybe we are closer to God for accepting ourselves the way he created us.
Okay, you know so much more than I about love, so let me ask you this. Is it love to pray for someone and ask God to show them HIS truth? Notice I said his truth, not my truth. Is it love to emphatize and care about someone who is hurting?
Or is it love to attack someone? Is it love to drive someone away from searching for God? Is it love to tell a person over and over again that they can’t be WHO they are and find God so they give up the search?
If C is lost from God, you can take the credit. Good job in causing one of his children to turn from searching for him. Pat yourself on the back and leave us the hell alone.
HELLO ALL–I’ve taken my time to reply in order to gather my thoughts. I’ve discovered that I really don’t have many.
I’ve read what every one has said, I appreciate everyone’s taking their time to comment, and reply to comments.
I know that religion can be a heated topic, as can someones sexuality. People who believe in God value their relationship with God and want others to come to have a relationship with God.
All I can do is speak for myself when it comes to this aspect. I at this point don’t see God as the god for me. I don’t see Christianity as the religion for me. I am still open to peoples opinions on God, and the things he has done in their lives. I am still interested in hearing about peoples relationship with God.
I will continue to post on Wednesdays about religion, all religions and spiritual beliefs. I hope people will continue to share their thoughts and feelings.
Sane, I do hear you. You think I’m going to hell. You think that because I’m queer I’m damned. You think I’m demonic. The list goes on.
How about you tell us more about you? How about you share something other than your we’re all hell bound sinners? I know there is more to you than what you are saying here. I know your thoughts on us queer folks, but how about showing us something a little different?
I wish nothing but peace for you all. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts with the world and with me. Thank you for sticking up for me. Thank you, thank you.
C.
C-I wish nothing but peace for you too!!
C, in my post I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were lost. And I apologize for allowing my irritation to come out in that way.
And while I do believe in God and consider myself a Christian, I would never imply that anyone who disagreed with me were wrong. I have found my truth and in time you will find yours. And if our truths never agree…I don’t care.
I like who you are and the person you are. I enjoy reading your blog and the comments you post on other’s. You are a good and loving person and you care about others. That is evident in what you write, where you work, and they way you communicate with everyone.
You are my internet buddy, a friend, and that doesn’t hinge on you believing what I believe. Your beliefs are yours and you are entitled to them. They will not change my opinion of you. But if you came to my house and burned my crops and slaughtered my cattle and ran over my dog…….Then we would have a problem.
I too wish you peace my friend. Take care
Ditto to what Kelli said!!!!
And I’m dittoing Stephanie and wvhillcountry.
I let my anger and sketicism get the best of me and while I was making a valid point on the elusive nature of “the truth,” I was lumping more people together than needed to be lumped together.
C, I greatly enjoy coming here, I like reading your thoughts, and I enjoy the community that comes to engage in thoughtful dialogue. You’re a true class act, which makes attempts to try to dehumanize you that much more outrageous.
Thanks for wishing us peace. Echoing those above me, I wish you peace, as well.
@ sane, I have been chastised in my heart all day for one of my posts directed at you. I don’t want to take up any more of C’s space or time, but if you care to hear the explanation and apology then here is a link.
http://wvhillcountry.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/explanation-and-apology/
Lindsey,
I do believe that a few posts back you requested that I not address you on Ceara’s blog. Please extend the same courtesy that you requested.
Jade,
The truth is simple. It’s following the truth that is difficult.
God has given everyone the truth. It just goes to if you want to believe it’s the truth or not.
If someone is a follower of Christ He reveals the truth to them as they grow in their faith.
Stephanie,
I do as I am lead. I am well aware that there are people who do not and won’t understand what I’ve been lead to do.
You are right it isn’t a contest; it’s a spiritual battle. It isn’t going to be easy.
If Ceara wishes to share the other things that go against God and His teachings I will share my thoughts on those. (I have addressed some in e-mails to her)
You and others are assuming that what I say on this blog is all I say.
Wvhillcountry,
You and others asked those same questions a few posts back. I answered them then.
Apology accepted.
Sane.
Sane: I looked through the last several months of Ceara’s posts to see what exactly you were talking about, and found no such comment. I’m baffled that I would even say something like that, as I believe that if you comment you put yourself out there for responses, myself included.
If you don’t want to converse with me, though, I will respect that.
Lindsey,
07/30/2008
Sane
Lindsey, July the 24th. Posted the wrong date previously.
Sane
Sane: Ah. Well, I believe I meant in the context of that post, not permanently. And I didn’t say that I didn’t want you to respond to me, just that if you felt the need to, to do it privately out of respect for Ceara.
I can’t “return the favor” of doing what I asked to you, as I don’t have your email address.
Sane, if “the truth” were simple, everyone would agree on what it is. But they don’t. And there’s no objective standard against which to measure anything. There are Christians — followers of Christ — who sincerely, devoutly, prayerfully believe the exact opposite of what you do, in many respects. They read the same book you do, they pray to the same God you do. Why doesn’t God reveal your truth to them? Why would he hide the ball? Isn’t hiding the ball a jerky thing to do? Or are you and your friends the only ones who properly pray and read, and the rest of the hundreds of other points of view are just deluding themselves? And if so, is that reading just a tad bit conceited? Perhaps?
Further, this Christian God’s truth has changed throughout time, adapting to social pressures and norms and science, even further complicating matters. To me, this suggests that our human minds can’t even get at the entire “truth” at any one time.
But alas, even though I still have empirical evidence on my side, we’ll never agree on this point. After all, it’s plain you disregard scientific method with your continual insistence that homosexuality is deviant, filthy, fill-in-the-blank. Which is funny, considering all this argument is over a computer. But hey. You have your truth and more power to you. I wish you’d stop haranguing C and the rest of us here, but your God is telling you that that’s how to witness, so there’s nothing I can do about that.
Enjoy yourself with your truth. Me, I’ll just continue to hang with the deviants. Just as God created me.
Toodles.
Sane, no actually you never directly answered the questions, you went off to comparisons of adultry but in no way did you answer the questions. You don’t have to, just don’t kid yourself that you were open or honest with us.
Lindsey never said to not talk to her, she said that the conversation could be held via email so as to not take up more space. There is a difference.
And although I resorted to tactics I have witnessed here on this blog and I rightfully apologized, that doesn’t mean that I agree with you.
I have been chastized by my God on many occasions and I can guarentee that I did not want to apologize to you. I wanted to be angry and resentful. I wanted to rant and rave and carry on. But no, God told me I was wrong and I know when I have sinned against God and my fellow man. He won’t let me rest until I have done what I can to fix my sin and seek forgiveness.
But never once has he chastized me on being gay. I wasn’t born wanting to be gay, I begged and pleaded for God to make me like everyone else I knew. He didn’t chastize me or slap me up side the head. Instead he told me very clearly that I am who he wanted me to be.
Maybe you will never understand that, that’s fine. But you HAVE to see your hand in turning C away from seeking God. You may be telling yourself you are speaking the truth, and hey, maybe you are, but you are not bringing in anyone to Christ and God.
Maybe you are right and we can’t understand God. But how in the world do you think telling us that we can’t find God will make us want to look. If I wasn’t so very sure of my own relationship with God, I would have been tempted to say the heck with it. If he can’t love me then the heck with him. I know that is not your goal.
Yes the Bible says for a man to lay with a man…… Yes we know that. I am guessing every gay person has heard those passages, but what about “For God so loved the world…” I am not questioning your witness, just the way you are going about it.
I conceed the fact you may be right, but what if I am right and you are wrong? What if thoses words were meant for only that time? What about the gnostic gospels? Written at the same times and yet not in the Bible. What if man made a mistake on what letters to include and which to leave out?
What if you are holding the Bible to a higher authority than God himself? Was it God telling me that I had sinned against you and must apologize? Was it God who told me the extra 20 the bank gave me wasn’t mine and to drive back and turn it in? Was it God who told me to pray for a friend only to find out later that she was in an emergency situation at the time? The very same voice was the one who told me that I am okay being gay.
If that is the devil, then he has made me do some very Christ-like things. I am not saying you are deceived by the devil, I am not discounting your faith or witness, all I ask is for the same consideration. Do not discount my relationship with God because it is different than yours.
I find it interesting that people apologize then continue to attack.
Even more so, people talk of compassion yet don’t show it when they vehemently disagree with a Christian of an opposing view.
I’m puzzled by this. I expect those who don’t claim Christ to act in a certain fashion, but those who do?
If I were Ceara, and I’m glad I’m not, I would wonder not who is right or wrong but why those who profess to believe in the same God attack one another with such gusto?
I would be puzzled by such attacks geared towards one person.
I have stated in a previous post that I know Sane personally. I attended the same worship group.
I would just like to say to Ceara, were we not correct in telling you that these things would happen?
The Sentinel
The one person in this thread who is being openly combative (aside from me, if you consider me to be combative) isn’t a Christian as far as I know, and thus can’t be held to such a standard. wvhillcountry is NOT attacking Sane- she may be questioning Sane’s methods, but she isn’t questioning Sane’s heart or calling.
And there is a HUGE difference.
I am motivated out of compassion for Ceara and a feeling that a friend of mine is being deeply hurt by the actions of another.
If I were to outright attack Sane, I wouldn’t be using the method or language that I am. But I do believe that I have every right to question the validity and usefulness of Sane’s actions. If Sane’s condemnation of Ceara causes Ceara to turn her back on Christ, that’s a major problem.
I am the asshole here. But I’m not exactly Christian, and in this case have left behind all pretense of acting in a Christlike manner.
However, I am the only one being the asshole. Wvhillcountry and Lindsey have shown restraint and a Christlike respect toward Sane and a compassion toward C. And further, wvhillcountry has been very open with her relationship with God and her struggles; from what I can gather she’s a gentle, devout woman who doesn’t deserve a sideways jab simply because she asks questions.
Honest questions asked respectfully are hardly attacks on a person.
The Sentinel, I was not attacking Sane Christian. One of the misfortunes of the written word is that it does not convey the facial expressions and tone of voice. My tone was one of sincere searching for the answers to the questions I asked. I was not being rude or inflamatory.
But since you brought it up, why is it okay for sane to say the things she does in the tone she does, but I can not question back without you thinking I am attacking? I said I didn’t question her witness. I even conceeded she may be right. So why is it that my questions are seen as an attack? I honestly don’t know.
Even very conservative circles agree that the gnostic gospels were written around the same time. It was an honest question about how do we know they included the right books or letters in the Bible? Man can screw up. God can’t.
I never once attacked her religious beliefs, I said I understood that we came from very different backgrounds. I never once told her she was deceived by the devil or her life was filth to God. But she has said those things indirectly to me. So how does that make me the bad guy?
Yes, I said things I shouldn’t have and yes God told me all about it. I did what I could to make it right. But my questions were just that, questions. As for my first two paragraphs, go back and read the previous blog. I was stating facts not attacking.
Maybe Sane’s heart is good and wonderful…I never questioned that or her calling to preach to homosexuals. I only questioned her methods. I questioned blasting hate and expecting people to flock in. I questioned why only 7 or 8 verses were spouted but not the Love of Christ. But in no way did I questioned what she feels her call to be.
I questioned if that same voice that told me to apologize, that told me to take back money that wasn’t mine, that told me to call a friend, and told I was okay being gay. If the voice that told me being gay is okay is from the devil then so are all of the others.
I personally can’t see the devil wanting me to take responsibility for my words and actions, returning money, or calling a friend.
I even ended my post saying, ” I am not discounting your faith or witness, all I ask is for the same consideration. Do not discount my relationship with God because it is different than yours.” Is that attacking? I am only asking for the same consideration that I am giving. You don’t have to agree with me. I don’t care, but please don’t diminsh my relationship with God because you don’t agree with it. I have never diminshed Sane’s relationship or yours. All I ask is for the same consideration.
@ The Sentinel Even more so, people talk of compassion yet don’t show it when they vehemently disagree with a Christian of an opposing view.
Can you read Sane’s posts and see compassion?
Sane, Sentinel-
I echo Lindsey when she says……
“But I do believe that I have every right to question the validity and usefulness of Sane’s actions. If Sane’s condemnation of Ceara causes Ceara to turn her back on Christ, that’s a major problem.”
Yes, we shouldn’t be concerned with “were we not correct in telling you that these things would happen?” or who knows more about love. We should be concerned with the last line of Lindsey’s above quoted statement.
My heart hurts to know that there was once someone who was going out to seek and search for God, only to have her journey cut short by one’s so freely given condemnation within the last 4 months.
She could have felt the warm, loving embrace of Jesus, but instead, I’m sure she just feels more rejection and condemnation.
That should be a big concern.
I don’t feel that I have come against you Sane because you believe differently than I, that has never been the problem. I have only questioned your motive and your witnessing tactics that have the strong possiblity of pushing someone further away from Christ.
Peace
Lindsey,
I hear you. I have read Sane’s responses to Ceara. While they seem harsh they are what we believe to be true.
I know Sane. I know her heart. I know the words she uses can come across as harsh, I know her tone behind those words.
Lindsey, it is hard to tell how someone is meaning to come across on line. Saying statements such as:
Sane: You’re language is eerily similar to what I’ve seen from a lot of people who have gone through ex-gay rehabilitation.
Calling it “filth”, “abhorrent”, etc.
It seems to be trying to cast a shadow over Sane as if being an ex-homosexual is some how wrong.
I can attest to that Sane is open in her e-mail’s to Ceara. As this does not seem to be the atmosphere in which one would build a friendship.
Wvhillcountry,
Ceara isn’t ours to save. She is God’s. While it seems as if their is a definite possibility that comments on here could be driving Ceara further away from God from what I understand she is on a ’spiritual journey’ of her own. I would like to be able to tell people that they can come to God and continue in their sin, that isn’t the truth.
I know what Sane is saying. Her words are a warning cry. If we as followers do not shout out warnings then we have not done our part as followers of Christ.
We believe that deception comes from the devil. We believe that Satan can appear as an angel of light. We believe that Satan can make evil seem good to our human minds. That is why we are to stand vigilant for his ways.
I don’t believe that Sane ever said that Ceara couldn’t find God. I think it was that with the sin in her life she cannot have a relationship with God. That goes for all sin.
I don’t think anyone of us are the ‘bad guy’. I think we have a difference in how we view God. That has lead to many misunderstandings. I think when people are in a defensive stance, or offencive stance the words that are written are read with that tone.
As for your questions, I will see that Sane answers them.
Jade,
As I stated, I expect those who don’t claim Christ to act in a certain manner.
The Sentinel
Stephaine,
Sane doesn’t condemn Ceara. Ceara condemns herself with her rejection of God’s love and salvation.
I agree it is a ‘major problem’ if Ceara has turned her back on Christ because of the actions of people here.
But, I think that Ceara has already in some form turned her back on Christ.
I believe that she will still feel the loving embrace of God.
The Sentinel
Okay Sentinel, you both are acting out of what you believe….Well so am I. The only difference is that I have never attacked your beliefs but you feel free to attack mine just because they disagree with yours. I have at least listened to you both, but have not had the same common courtesy.
I have never once called your beliefs to be from the devil. Yet you both feel free to shout hellfire and damnation. Fine, that is your choice. But in the final day, I truly will be surprised if God looks upon your works and call it good.
I never said that someone couldn’t be ex-gay. I never said that was a bad thing. What I said was just because someone hates a part of themselves doesn’t mean the rest of us do. What I do believe is that one does not have to be ex-gay to get to heaven. When God tells me that being gay is wrong, then I will follow what he tells me. I follow God not man.
As for taking my personal relationship with God with such disdain, If I were to do the same to you I would be a horrible person. But since it is you attacking my God, it is somehow valid?
But you know what? My Grandpap always said the trouble with pissing contests is that eventually your feet get wet. That is what this is. You know why? Because you feel free to attack our beliefs but call foul if we do the same. The rules aren’t the same for everyone. Since we can not have the same rules for everyone, then nothing will be accomplished. I’m done pissing into the wind. I’m done casting pearls before swine.
Yes I am a follower of Christ and yes I love my Lord my God, nothing you say can change that. But the two of you are doing more to chase people away from God than anything else. Maybe that is your goal, chase all the gays away so you won’t have to deal with them in heaven. But don’t be surprised when you get there that your gay brothers and sisters in Christ are there waiting for you.
I never said that being an ex-gay is wrong, that is your own interpretation of the statement. I was just stating something about Sane’s words that I find to be a little curious. I do question some “reorientation” therapies because they focus so much on hating the sin, and from what I’ve experienced of homosexuals in the church, a much healthier approach is through loving holiness. You can only expend so much energy on hate and judgment before you wear yourself out- but if you truly love holiness, the cost of sin (no matter how attractive) will be to much.
Honestly, I find it a little unsettling that even the suggestion that a person may have, at one point, in the past, been gay would be seen as an attack.
I desperately want to know what is driving Sane here, why she would pick Ceara as the one to “work on” when there are PLENTY of lesbians to condemn.
About five months ago Ceara was posting about things like how the hatred leveled towards homosexuals by Christianity made it hard for understand how God could be loving, about how judgmentalism just turned her off, and all of these other things- then along comes Sane, Sane who is EXACTLY what Ceara would expect a Christian to be- judgmental, cold, and really dissaproving of homosexuality. Sane who has reinforced all of Ceara’s negative stereotypes and nipped her blooming trust in God in the bud.
There’s a reason that all of Ceara’s friends feel a slight bitterness towards Sane. We’d been encouraging Ceara to open up, to trust, and now we’ve watched her wither and close herself off, her personal stories are more rare now, and all of her posts about Christianity are cynical.
It’s an absolute shame.
And Sane carries the responsibility- not Ceara’s homosexuality. Ceara has ALWAYS been gay, but she’s only been so cynical for a few months.
Ceara has already commented to Sane-
“Sane, I do hear you. You think I’m going to hell. You think that because I’m queer I’m damned. You think I’m demonic. The list goes on.”
“How about you tell us more about you? How about you share something other than your we’re all hell bound sinners? I know there is more to you than what you are saying here. I know your thoughts on us queer folks, but how about showing us something a little different?”
I would be interested to hear more. Will you answer this comment please?
Wvhill,
I have never attacked your beliefs. I and Sane have just stated ours.
I have not attacked anyone here. I am just commenting to replies that I see.
I don’t believe I’ve ever stated that anyone’s beliefs are from the devil.
I think people need to take a deep breath and read what they are typing and conveying here.
“Maybe that is your goal, chase all the gays away so you won’t have to deal with them in heaven.”
You wonder why the response that you get may be harsh? I do believe that you stated previously that you don’t question Sane’s calling?
Lindsey,
If you don’t think ex-gay is wrong why bring it up?
Perhaps you should take the time to build a relationship with Sane as you would with any other person you would like to get to know.
Sane
Ceara,
I apologize that your post has turned into such a spiritual quagmire.
It was not my intent to throw fuel on the fire but by the mere mention that I know Sane I have placed myself in the line of fire.
My apologizes,
The Sentinel
Jesus loves me this I know. For the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong. They are weak but he is strong. Yes Jesus loves me (and you), Yes Jesus LOVES me (and you), YES Jesus Loves me ( and you) the Bible tells me so.
Sentinel: I commented on it because I’m curious. If Sane used to be gay, or has fears about being gay, that would explain the vehemence. The sins we tend to attack the most strongly are the ones we fear out of ourselves.
And how am I supposed to “get to know Sane” the way I would a normal person when I have no way of contacting Sane outside the comments threads of Ceara’s blog? I offered Sane my email address as a way of moving our conversation elsewhere, an offer Sane didn’t take me up on. I would love to be able to have a more full and uninhibited conversation- but unfortunately that’s just not always possible in this kind of theater.
Ceara has already commented to Sane-
“Sane, I do hear you. You think I’m going to hell. You think that because I’m queer I’m damned. You think I’m demonic. The list goes on.”
“How about you tell us more about you? How about you share something other than your we’re all hell bound sinners? I know there is more to you than what you are saying here. I know your thoughts on us queer folks, but how about showing us something a little different?”
I would be interested to hear more. Will you answer this comment please?